Best of the ISP-Lists

Fixed Wireless Equipment

A Choice of Routers

WISPs say that there are clear differences between a pair of router vendors, and the co-founder of one of the vendors joins the discussion.

[June 27, 2006]

In June, shortly after we ran our article on Imagestream (see A New Router, a New Direction for a Router Maker), JP asked the ISP-Wireless list for advice on choosing a router:

One of my E1 backbone links went down today and unfortunately we don't have a backup at the moment. So I need to order something on an emergency basis. We don't have the budget to buy a new E1 link, but I do have a set of routers with E1 and Ethernet interfaces. Therefore I want to buy a low cost 5 GHz Ethernet bridge link. I was quoted a Mikrotik link with a pair of "RB532" and "SuperRange5 802.11a 400 mW mini-PCI radio cards" and outdoor enclosures. Price is really good. But I don't have any experience with Mikrotik. How does this stuff work? Is it reliable? It will be deployed in the Caribbean, so it will get hot. Doesn't Mikrotik have embedded firewall etc.? I only need a bridged link and nothing else.

List members said that Mikrotik equipment is good but not easy to use.

[TI replied] "Works great. Will take a while getting used to if you have never used it before. Have the company you are buying it from set up the configs for you and you will be up a lot quicker."

[TR agreed] "Mikrotik is solid as a rock and works well. However, the operator needs to know how to operate and configure it, and Mikrotik can be unforgiving to configuration errors. If you aren't careful you can lock yourself out of a radio. But once you get the hang of it, it's very powerful."

[SC added] "Mikrotik is probably the single most flexible and feature rich 'utility OS' I have ever messed with. It does lots of stuff really well and for the price it is a fantastic option many times."

[WD disagreed] "We use Imagestream for the multi DS-3, OC-x and ATM/VoIP solutions."

[TI complained] "We are not comparing apples to apples, because Mikrotik costs much less money and with Mikrotik you don't have to worry about voiding your warranty if you add your own hardware to the mix. Last I checked, ImageStream would not allow me to add my own PCI NIC (not purchased from Imagestream) to the box and still maintain warranty. That killed the deal right there."

[WD disagreed] "I found the web interface for configuring the next gen of Imagestream far better than MT's, and then choice of interfaces. Mikrotik rocks as it is constantly being developed, but the chip set advantage of Imagestream makes it not apples to apples. As Imagestream adds wireless support on top, it will be interesting to say the least to have the choice."

[TR asked] "Care to elaborate on the ImageStream web interface? Last I used it, only the text menu was available."

[Jeff Broadwick, CEO of Imagestream, replied] "There is a new web tool that will be available starting with our new Envoy router. It won't be available with the initial release, but can be downloaded later. We expect to have it out within 30 days. The web tool will be migrated up our product line over the rest of the year. It will also be available to existing customers. Folks with a 32 Meg flash will need to buy an inexpensive flash from us to take the larger image."

[TJ argued] "You are talking about a product or feature (web interface) that has not even been released yet. Mikrotik has been doing wireless for many, many years... to think Imagestream is going to step in and be up to par even within the first year is a little optimistic, IMO."

[Jeff Broadwick replied] "As anyone who follows this list knows, I view Cisco as my primary competitor, and anyone who takes business away from them helps me in the long run. I really like the Mikrotik guys and I think that they offer a great product for many customers. I go out of my way to avoid saying anything critical of them. They do things (like radios) that we don't have any intention of concentrating on, and they offer their customers the opportunity to save money by building/maintaining their own hardware."

[SC suggested] "I have both Imagestream and Mikrotik—and I am very happy with both. I would not use my Imagestream at a customer site nor would I try to drive an RF link with one whether it supported wireless cards or not. Likewise, I would not remove my Imagestream as primary single point of failure router either and replace it with Mikrotik (already went there once).

Each tool has its place and both of these products are superb. Just select carefully where you use each and for what."

[BB complained] "While I have the utmost respect for the Imagestream product, Imagestream is far too proud of their Interfaces. The cost of Imagestream Interfaces was a primary reason for us to pass on Imagestream. We would be better off on a cost basis buying second hand Cisco parts with a one year warranty than new Imagestream Interfaces with a one year warranty. Reason we didn't do that was because Cisco just doesn't have the horsepower for GigE until you get into the 12000 Series line.

Our Mikrotik routers with Intel GigE Fiber Interfaces have proven to be a solid, reliable platform at a fraction of the Imagestream price. I know we've had this discussion before, but we can literally have two or maybe three Mikrotik boxes for the price of one Imagestream box.

That being said the MikroTik solution is not without drawbacks. BGP continues to be a thorn in our side with MikroTik and I know it would not be with Cisco or Imagestream. Either MikroTik will need to get their advanced routing module stable and up to speed with the likes of Cisco & Imagestream or eventually as our requirements continue to expand we will have to move away from the MikroTik platform for our core needs. I'm still hopeful MikroTik will step up to the plate, but only time will tell.

Bottom line is it is likely the vast majority of wISPs do not require the advanced routing protocols. When that is the case the decision becomes very easy for a small and medium sized ISP to choose MikroTik over Imagestream."

[Jeff Broadwick replied] "As I said, there is a place for both products. Are you able to do a full 100 Meg of traffic at small packet sizes on your GigE link? Are you able to do it with firewalling and QoS? We offer wirespeed specifications that REQUIRE that we be able to do things like that. Cisco won't do that for you.

I'll take issue with your contention that your costs are lower with used Cisco. If you relicense their product, as they demand, then your costs are FAR higher. In many applications, we are less expensive than used Cisco, without relicensing. I don't know how you are getting a year warranty on used Cisco, but I do know if you want support from Cisco, you will find that your costs go up dramatically.

I explained our interface prices in a prior email. I'll be happy to go into greater detail, offline, with anyone who would like that information. You need to compare our part prices with Cisco or Juniper's part prices, not what you can get from your local retailer. We provide a complete, supported, warranted product, just like Cisco/Juniper. Our parts cost FAR less than their new gear, List or street, as do our complete products."

[CW noted] "If you know what you're doing, Mikrotik can be a very powerful tool. However, the vast majority of WISPs (and ISPs for the matter) don't know anything about routing beyond basic subnetting and default protocol configuration—IMO, ImageStream thrives in this market because they actually act as an ISP's 'router department.'"

[KC agreed] "Guilty as charged. I do not have the time to be a routing expert. I love my Imagestream for the support behind it. It was worth the investment."

[SC concluded] "Hey Jeff, I'm a fan of your product but I hear what these guys are saying and I hear what you are saying. Do you think there could something like a 45 day support when you buy a new router and you could reduce the price on the cards you sell while still requiring them to be purchased through you. Then you add paid support for annual subscription for those who need it? That may help make everyone happier?"

—End